Former Prime Minister and SIS minister Helen Clark has questioned New Zealand’s continued involvement in the Five Eyes intelligence network, describing it as “out of control”.
It comes amid traditional allies and partners of the United States showing increased concern about how long-standing relationships are being handled by President Donald Trump.
In an interview with Q+A, Clark said the Five Eyes had strayed beyond its original brief of being merely a coordinating group for intelligence agencies in the US, Canada, UK, Australia, and New Zealand.
“There’s been some talk in the media that Trump might want to evict Canada from it… Please could we follow?” said Clark.
“I mean, really, the problem with Five Eyes now has become a basis for policy positioning on all sorts of things.
“You will recall that in my time as Prime Minister, and all the time leading up to that, it was never acknowledged that it even existed. It was an intelligence-sharing pool. It was never confirmed nor denied that it was even there.
“And to see it now as the basis for joint statements, finance minister meetings, this has got a bit out of control.”
She said it had been useful for New Zealand to be involved in Five Eyes, but noted that “intelligence has to be treated with scepticism”.
“I’m saying it’s useful if it goes back to being a quiet intelligence-sharing pool. Where it’s not helpful is as a coordination of foreign policy positioning, and that’s where it’s heading.”
Clark also questioned whether governmental appointees made by President Trump could necessarily be trusted to keep sensitive intelligence secret.
Clark has long been an advocate for a so-called “independent foreign policy” and questioned whether it was a good idea for New Zealand to accept the urging of the US to raise defence spending to 2% of GDP.
“I don’t think so. And frankly notwithstanding the presence of three Chinese vessels in the Tasman Sea, we’re not under threat of invasion. Three ships is not exactly the Spanish Armada in the English Channel,” said Clark.
She described it as a “tit for tat” after New Zealand and Australian vessels participated in naval exercises in the seas around China and Taiwan.
“Now the Chinese are coming and sailing around our backyard in the Tasman Sea. Now the Prime Minister says he wants to send a frigate up to the South China Sea. I mean, why are we buying into this fight?”
She said the country should focus more on diplomatic and humanitarian engagement with Pacific nations rather than putting that money towards defence capability, given New Zealand’s military forces would always be “minuscule, and not frighten off anyone”.
However, she said the live firing exercises by the Chinese vessels was “completely over the top”, and that Foreign Minister Winston Peters had been right to raise concerns about those drills with his counterparts in Beijing.
According to RNZ, Peters said that while he didn’t seek any assurances or explanations about the fleet, as it had a right to be there under maritime law, he did raise concerns with China’s Foreign Minister Wang Yi about a lack of notice — civil aviation flights needed to be changed.
Given the two countries’ partnership, Peters said he expected New Zealand to be notified. He believed China was considering doing this in the future.
Responding to concerns raised by Australia earlier this week, China claimed the issue around the ships was being deliberately hyped up, and it had issued warnings for aircraft.
Q+A with Jack Tame is made with the support of NZ on Air