Documents released to Q+A have raised questions about advice Nicole McKee says she gave in 2017 on a so-called loophole in firearms law – a loophole later used by the Christchurch terrorist.
However, the Associate Justice Minister said this week her advice was consistent with what she had said in a Q+A interview in August.
Before she became an ACT MP, McKee was appointed by then-police minister Paula Bennett to give independent advice on a select committee’s report into illegal gun ownership in New Zealand.
The 2017 select committee report raised concerns over the definition of military-style semi-automatics (MSSA). The committee said the law, as it was back then, would allow someone with the most basic gun license to legally buy an “A Category” semi-automatic firearm and, separately, buy a high-capacity magazine.
Because of the interchangeability of parts, the select committee said the “A Category” semi-automatic firearm could easily be transformed into what is supposed to be a highly restricted MSSA.
Associate Justice Minister Nicole McKee spoke to Q+A’s Jack Tame. (Source: 1News)
The select committee said it was difficult to enforce rules around conversions, and recommended the then-National government investigate creating a restricted semi-automatic rifle and shotgun category to address the so-called loophole. The government later rejected the recommendation.
Two years later, Christchurch mosque shooter Brenton Tarrant was able to use the loophole to build his weapons and kill 51 people.
In her August interview with Q+A, McKee said she supported tidying up the loophole during the 2017 select committee inquiry.
When asked if she used the unique opportunity of directly advising the minister in order to close the loophole, McKee said: “Definitely.”
Q+A has obtained a copy of written advice submitted by McKee and another independent advisor at the time, under the Official Information Act.
The loophole was not mentioned in the 12-page, 4000-word submission.
McKee and her colleague formally advised Bennett to reject the committee’s recommendation to look at reclassifying and potentially restricting semi-automatic firearms.
In her Q+A interview, McKee said she made that recommendation because she preferred a different option for closing the loophole by restricting access to high-capacity magazines.
“I advised the minister that she should put large-capacity magazines on an endorsed license.”
However, in the official advice to then-minister Bennett released to Q+A, there is no mention of high-capacity magazines.
Paula Bennett told Q+A this week she did not recall the loophole or restrictions on high-capacity magazine sales being brought up in conversation with Nicole McKee. The issue did not appear in her handwritten notes responding to the advisors’ comments.
McKee also provided feedback to the select committee in her capacity as a firearms safety specialist. Her submission did not refer to the loophole or restricting high-capacity magazine sales.
The only line Q+A could find in the official documents from that 2017 inquiry that could be interpreted as suggesting limits on magazines was in the Government response: “We are aware that experts in the firearms community have suggested alternative approaches. The Government remains open to hearing any such suggestions.”
It’s unclear if this relates to firearms, classification standards, magazine sales, or anything else.
‘I recall raising it at every possible opportunity’
When asked about the official advice released to Q+A, McKee said she was “certain” the issue was raised with the government at the time.
“I am certain this issue was raised with then-police minister Paula Bennett at the time of the inquiry. However, it was deemed to be outside the scope of the inquiry which was limited to the illegal possession of firearms.
“I recall raising it at every possible opportunity.”
It was McKee and her colleague who had advised Bennett that the select committee’s recommendation about the classification of semi-automatic firearms was out of scope for the original inquiry.
In the documents obtained by Q+A, the minister makes no such judgement. The select committee ultimately decided to include the loophole issue in its report.
At the time of the inquiry, McKee said she was also a member of the Firearms Community Advisory Forum, which “provides a formal channel for the firearms community to provide input to Police”.
McKee provided Q+A excerpts of minutes from forum meetings at the time which refer to restrictions on high-capacity magazines.
Only one of these meetings was held before she advised Paula Bennett on the select committee report, and the minutes do not recall who made the comments about high-capacity magazines. This is included in full at the end of this article.
McKee also referred to this group in her Q+A interview:
“Right up until March 14th 2019, I sat in a meeting where we again advocated for that to be tightened.”
Full statement from Nicole McKee
I am certain this issue was raised with then Police Minister Paula Bennett at the time of the inquiry.
However, it was deemed to be outside the scope of the inquiry which was limited to the illegal possession of firearms. I recall raising it at every possible opportunity.
At the time, I was also a member of the Firearms Community Advisory Forum which provides a formal channel for the firearms community to provide input to Police.
I have included excerpts from FCAF minutes from the period May 2016 – December 2017 which relate to the provisions on high-capacity magazines in the MSSA Amendment Bill and issues around licence endorsements.
As FCAF is held under the Chatham House rule, there is no record of which member made the recorded comments.
FCAF Minutes excerpts
December 2017
Agenda item 11: Magazine Size
This item was put on the agenda for two reasons. One that it had been raised as a point of discussion at the previous FCAF meeting but because of limited time there was limited discussion. The second was that a large capacity magazine was found associated with a fatal shooting. An incident was reported about someone being sold semi-automatics by a dealer and then later on the same day purchasing a large capacity magazine.
Many people are unaware that inserting a large capacity mag into an A Cat firearm will change it to an MSSA and this is illegal. A member commented that prior to 1992 Amendments there was no E endorsement. There was some proliferation of MSSAs and large capacity magazines prior to the Arms Act Amendments in 1992. There are a large number in circulation now.
Three local manufactures make 30 round mags. FCAF member commented that the definition of ‘fit and proper’ can be applied as a control – fit and proper users do not fit large mags to A Cats illegally. There are no restrictions in sales of large capacity magazines. The behaviour should be around supporting good legal practice
August 2017
MSSAs were also discussed. Police pointed out that A Cat firearms seized with high capacity mags were automatically MSSAs, although there are other MSSA features such as pistol grips, flash suppressor etc. Police reaffirmed that firearms are classified as they are seized.
AND
High-capacity magazines require no licence to purchase in NZ. This is significant when it comes to people assembling MSSAs. A committee member commented that they should be restricted.
May 2016
There was further discussion regarding firepower being the main issue and this has a direct correlation with magazine size. Whether a firearm has a pistol grip or thumbhole makes no difference. This led to a question of why not restrict the purchase/possession of larger magazine sizes to those with endorsements, countered by someone saying there are thousands of magazines out there and this would make possession of such magazines suddenly illegal for some who had them legally.
A view was expressed that consideration of doing this as a ‘buy-back’ would be required with fair compensation given. A further comment was that this would lead to many large magazines going ‘underground’.
[However, if a person owns an A category semi-automatic firearm and has a magazine able to hold more than 7 cartridges, then they already should have an E endorsement because of the ability to convert that A category into a MSSA.]
